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 Post subject: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:58 pm 
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http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=8622
OMG! I will just leave this here for you all to read :P
ITS TIME FOR SOME 5 MAN CO-OP

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:01 pm 
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I just literally peed myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:06 pm 
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YEAH!!!! **** YEAH!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:13 pm 
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OH YEAH!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:07 pm 
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z315 wrote:
I just literally peed myself.

You and me both! This should be interesting.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:49 pm 
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For RH server operation... we might need to only have 6 people on Wednesday night. :P Long story short: a 6 player server requires about as much overhead as a full 24 player server. Not sure listen servers are possible.

From Valve's own Fletcher Dunn:

Here are some answers to questions regarding hosting MvM servers:

* Players can join your server through any means they can join PvP games: the server browser, ad hoc joins, or the new matchmaking system (quickplay beta).
* To accept matchmaking traffic, you must select which sort of traffic you want. (Regular PvP traffic or MvM traffic.) Set "tf_mm_servermode 2" to be placed in the MvM pool.
* For MvM matchmaking, if 6 players are sent to your server to start a new game, it will switch to whatever map the players selected.
* You will need a TF gameserver account to accept matchmaking traffic.
* You can switch the server in and out of any matchmaking mode pool or back to any regular game mode at any time.
* The CPU usage for a 6 player MvM game is about the same as for a regular TF server. (Yep, this mode requires significantly more CPU cycles per player than the normal PvP mode, that's an unfortunate fact.)

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Q&A session with one of the playtesters:

http://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comment ... d_mvm_ama/

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Furthermore, RH won't be hosting since we are a 24 player (technically 26, I'll set up the reserve slot soon). It really only works with 32 player servers.

Fletcher Dunn wrote:
We will not have Steam group functionality tomorrow.

You actually have to set maxplayers to 32 to host MvM (to make room for all the bots). That's why the mode is expensive CPU-wise, to not only simulate all those players but run their AI logic as well. We'll have more details on the recommended settings tomorrow.

Regarding exactly what happens if a 24-player server switches to MvM: I actually don't think we have worked that out yet.

I'm pretty sure on day one there will be lots of people trying out all sorts of things. Our approach to experimentation in MvM will be the same as in PvP: we encourage it, provided that players are opting in to any major deviations from the vanilla experience. Our servers will all be configured vanilla, and the matchmaking will enforce the 6 player limit, and the server browser will be the primary means for players to find those sorts of customizations. What will the most interesting customizations be? What will the standard tags be used that we request server operators to set in order to help players find the modifications they want or avoid the ones they don't like? We can't know that yet. That's something we expect you guys and your players to figure out.

I will hazard a guess that raising the player count well above 6 would be detrimental the experience. There ratio of humans to bots would be off and the human defending team would not have enough challenge. (As an extreme example: imagine a 32-player server where everybody is defending an there are no bots.) Exactly how far it can be raised above 6 without totally breaking the game is speculation of course. I think a smart server operator will start out with the server configured relatively vanilla, and then watch how the game unfolds and listen to their players, and try to make smart decisions about which areas to experiment, rather than assuming the same sorts of adjustments your community prefers in PvP will automatically apply to this mode. A fun co-op mode with more than six players is likely to require entirely new missions. (The mission decides the pattern of enemy robots that come at you.) We have purposefully made it easy for players to create their own missions. (It's a lot easier than creating a whole new map!) But if you play with more than six players, with the missions we've made, I think the balance will be way off.

- Fletch


So, how do we play this new mode? Valve is going to be hosting servers for this. Quickplay might be your friend, aka the matchmaking system. Have one person do that and then all your buddies can join. Or go find an empty one (good luck).

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Mercs BOOYA!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:13 pm 
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This vid shows that they (Valve) have been dropping hints about this for over 2 years...0_0


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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:14 pm 
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I'm going to try setting up a local server on my desktop (now that I actually have enough bandwidth to do that and a static IP). Hopefully it will be enough to handle a few dozen players.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:32 pm 
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God damn this sounds awesome, TF2 meets Killing Floor with robots and weapon upgrades.

Now that the damn heatwave is finally done with in my area, expect me to be playing the hell out of this tonight. :50cal:

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Blood_Red87 wrote:
expect me to be playing the hell out of this tonight. :50cal:


I actually expect very few of us to be playing, as we wonder where our item loadouts are and why Valve has never been able to keep up with the demand on their item servers even though they know every large update kills their item servers. (and they've got the money to buy some more)

Edit: Okay Earl, I hope you get that server working. Most of us aren't going to pay 99 cents to play this mode in Mann Up mode! Let's get that private server going! (with that said, I can call on my near limitless supply of refined metal and get a bunch of tickets for myself and my closest pals! no not you Hk :2fer: )

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Ugh, haven't been able to get into a single game tonight. Guess i'm going to have to wait until this new game mode get ironed out and all the kinks fixed. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:05 am 
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Same here...I will try again tomorrow...send invites and what not. Maybe get in a game...we had a good group, 1 minute away and one of our number, and he knows who he is, left to join others and we got kicked out of our queue ONE MINUTE!!! :x . Needless to say that individual will be admin abused until his eyes are bleeding the next time we are on the RH server. :twisted: :2fer:


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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:30 am 
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I ran into a bunch of problems last night, but finally got the server that I was using up and running MvM.

It's passworded, so you will need to contact me for use and understand that I don't own or rent the server. It's space given to me by a friend who can opt to kick, shut down or do whatever he wants at any time.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:34 am 
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Yare is also running a rented server, and we had a lot of fun last night. If you see me or Yare on, you can ask to join, and we'll tell you the password. You can also view server info and see how many people are on (max 6) and the rest are just bot names. The top 6 names should be human, so if they aren't, then there's a slot available.

Btw, don't bother with Mann Up mode's vouchers. They only get you random weapon drops, not the new MvM stuff. You have to complete an entire tour (6 mission over 3 maps) to get a guaranteed MvM item, and you don't need a voucher for that at all, just a Tour Ticket.

Or, play on a private non-matchmaking server and have just as much fun!! IM me on steam for the password.

Yare's server: 8.6.2.147:27015

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:02 pm 
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I'm going to try again tonight to set up a server on my machine. (It will have to be inside a virtual machine, and there are gigabytes of game data to transfer). I might just break down and rent from GameServers for a month.... Unfortunately, since the main RH server is only 26 players, it cant be converted to MvM.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Also this game mode IS NOT BALANCED FOR SMALLER TEAMS. Dac, Sneak and I tried 5 times to beat even the first wave, and failed each time, with a variety of class makeups.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Earl wrote:
Unfortunately, since the main RH server is only 26 players, it cant be converted to MvM.

It technically could be used for MvM, we just can't do it with the gameservers interface. We can edit the server.cfg file though, and just change map to a MvM map.


Earl wrote:
Also this game mode IS NOT BALANCED FOR SMALLER TEAMS. Dac, Sneak and I tried 5 times to beat even the first wave, and failed each time, with a variety of class makeups.

The game was only balanced for 6 players, no more, no less. What happens is, if you have less than 6 players, the 27 remaining slots are filled with bots. If you have more than 6 players, you've just taken away some slots from the bots, meaning less enemies to kill, making it easier.

There have been people who have solo'd MvM to at least wave 4, so it's relatively doable. 3 players actually TRYING to win can do it. Was sneak still playing as a scout batting the enemies? It's funny, but it's not that effective and it has low DPS now matter how much he levels up his melee speed and damage.

ALSO

Tonight we're going to play on advanced difficulty. MvM has 2 difficulties, and we were playing on normal difficulty. Advanced is a lot harder, with lots of giants in the first wave! To do this, we just go to the main menu, call a vote, select mission, and change to advanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:41 am 
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Jinxter wrote:
This vid shows that they (Valve) have been dropping hints about this for over 2 years...0_0


This absolutely blows my mind that valve has been planning this for the past two years. Amazing.

Shut up and take my money.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:24 pm 
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z315 wrote:
Jinxter wrote:
This vid shows that they (Valve) have been dropping hints about this for over 2 years...0_0


This absolutely blows my mind that valve has been planning this for the past two years. Amazing.

Shut up and take my money.

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Earl's Server :jables: RH Server


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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:34 am 
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Has anyone been able to beat this mode on a regular basis? If so what are some tricks/classes that are really helpful?

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 Post subject: Re: Man vs Machine update
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:46 pm 
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Max, Yare, Sneak, 2 of their coworkers, and I have been killing Mann Up mode (this mode is only advanced difficulty, not normal mode). Info below I give is for Advanced. For normal mode, do whatever you want. It's the easy mode, and an entire team of sword/shield demoknights could beat it (and they have).

The idea is that as a team, you need to cover all the bases. No one class will make or break the mode (although snipers are generally less versatile aside from headshotting giants over and over, and a medic is quite valuable). If you think of the mode as more of a strategy, then you can better see what you need.

You need DPS, heals, ammo, range, and correction.

DPS: Damage dealers. For MvM, this is the demomen and heavies. Wrangled sentries are also great, but they can't be crit boosted (although they can take advantage of jarate or fan o' war/sandman's minicrits). Soldiers aren't as high DPS as you might think in MvM. Super fast reload will help them, but that also helps the already great demomen and heavies with faster fire rate. The other reason demomen excel is that they have great, consistent burst damage, i.e. stickies. One rocket at an uber-ready medic won't kill him and it makes him uber, but 2 stickies at the same time and he blows up.

Heals: Medic or dispenser. Medic preferred for speed, but dispensers can heal everyone, especially if you upgrade the range.

Ammo: dispensers are unique here.

Range: sometimes it's best to eliminate something from afar ASAP, such as snipers. Nades, stickies, snipers, wrangled sentries.

Correction and stalling: Someone needs to be able to handle things if a scout slips by. Often this is a pyro with airblast, a demo with good stickies to blast back, a soldier who can rocket jump well, or a sniper who is very good at headshots. Pyro excels at this though. Spy is great at stalling but not correction.

Unique to MvM: MONEY. Someone has to collect it all, and scouts, with their increased collection radius, excel at this.

So this all feels a bit abstract. The idea is that you aren't focusing on just what is a "good class" but areas you need to cover.

- After all is said, it's pretty obvious Demomen (with explosives especially stickies) are extremely valuable. Scottish resistance ftw. Heavies are also amazing, especially brass beast. Yeah, that silly thing is useful in MvM.

- One medic is good, and kritzkrieg deals the hurt often (you can use kritz on a demo before a wave starts so he places crit stickies all over).

- Engies cover a lot of roles, so they are great to have, at least one. Heals, ammo, good DPS, teleporters.

- Something to slow the bots down consistently, so pyros or spies. Spies also backstab nicely, but their best role is sappin stuff, especially upgraded. It gets quite powerful. Pyros airblast very well, and can easily reset a bomb to the start by blasting a bot into a pit. Damage resistance is highly recommended for pyros airblasting a lot. If you are a pyro and you aren't airblasting in MvM, there are at least 4 other classes that deal better damage than you, even better than repeated phlog crits (although that's quite fun).

There's way more to type, but I will cut it short. Quick tips:

- Everyone should use kritz canteens except maybe the kritz medic, who might want uber to save his own butt.
- Don't buy back into the game in the first wave or two. That's a waste of money you will wish you had in the later waves.
- During the last waves, buy back in often, and soon if your team really needs you. What else are you using that money on?
- Well one thing you are using it on is more canteen refills! If you respawn, be sure to top off your kritz canteen (last couple waves only!)
- Do not underestimate collecting money. You might want a dedicated scout just for this. He can also do decent DPS from the backside of unaware bots and you can use fan o war to give minicrits, or upgrade the sandman to mark for death also.
- You don't need to kill support bots to complete a wave, nor do they drop money (pretty sure they don't). But it's often a good idea to kill them, especially snipers.
- Bots are predictable in behavior. They always shoot the closest player to them who is also damaging them. That is important to note. Most pyros will never be shot if they don't flame the giants first. Just airblast to stall and let your team destroy the giants/sentry buster. If nothing is shooting the bot, it'll go for the closest player.
- Speaking of sentry busters, if a sentry buster touches an engy, it will stop moving and detonate. This is a good trick to use then. Engy runs forward, touches sentry buster, then runs away, making it explode safely away from his stuff.

Most of all, try all sorts of weapons. Weapons you thought sucked. They can be great! Play with some friends or people who don't suck, who enjoy strategy more than just pew pew all day long.

Our usual Mann Up load out:
- sco res demo, fast reload
- brass beast heavy with projectile deflection
- kritz medic with canteen sharing
- pyro with airblast, damage resistance
- engy with dispenser near teammates (but not in enemy's line of sight) and upgraded dispenser range. Also engy needs to move buildings a lot.
- open slot, usually a scout with sandman, mad milk, upgraded mobility

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