That last line was tongue-in-cheek. It's common to blame outside factors.

You said op/up is opinion, but it's not. "I like pizza" is an opinion and can't be refuted. Talking about a class can be based on opinion, but can still be discussed. I won't make a fallacy by saying just because a majority says something that it's true, but I have found the arguments against the pyro's power to be much stronger than the ones for it, and there are a lot of arguments.

Competition is different from pubs, but the fundamentals are there. You can still set up a scenario and make arguments about what happens. If we are to discuss this though, we'll have to set it up, then proceed to discuss it. There are so many situations where one could say pyro is op/up/fair, but that's the thing. You have to set it up, and so far you haven't set up any situation. Let's put that in another thread.

You won't have to make the airblasting ubers argument though. I think that is way too powerful, and should not push ubers at all. At least the quick fix is immune to this.

Your answer lies within your own words. "I have found the arguments...". Oh you have? And your own filters and bias and perceptions would never influence your thoughts? Gel, the world is perception. You have read some, ok I will give you a lot, but it doesn't mean anything. A lot of people on the internet posting their own perceptions based on their skills, experiences, etc. And then you apply your own skills, experiences, etc. Opinions upon opinions, not facts upon facts. I am glad you have a strong opinion. Doesn't mean you are right. Doesn't mean I am right either. Our brains create narratives about our lives, every aspect of it, and it's been proven that these narratives are false. That we retroactively re-sort our information to make ourselves feel better and fit the information nicely into our existing framework.

I don't need to posit anything. I already have and you agreed with at least one of them which is the airblast as an uber killer is op.

Our server is back up, however map nomination's are broken. So have at it!

Sure park, opinions opinions blahblahblahblah except there's one problem: you said you wouldn't read anything on the subject due to everything being based on opinion and perceptions. The problem with that is, if that's true, then we can never discuss anything ever. As a game developer I HAVE to discuss it. If my co-workers cried "opinion!!!" every time anyone brought something up, nothing would get done and nothing would be balanced (or attempted at being balanced). The popular opinion is that pyro is underpowered. I will not say that proves anything, but the mere fact that people are more vocal about that than the people who try to dispute it. The opposition's arguments are terrible.

But they made arguments, at least some of them. You just stated things that happened, but didn't say why they were in favor of the pyro. What was the full scenario? Did a pyro really do all that damage? Who was around the enemy and what was their skill level?

We can all run up to MusicMan and melee him to death with a Fan-o-war, but that doesn't make that weapon good for anything but laughs. So what if a pyro crit flared a heavy? He has 300 HP and a gun that does so much damage the pyro can't even blink. I can only imagine the heavy was really bad at positioning himself. What was this heavy doing standing out in the open to be a) lit on fire and then b) hit with a 2nd flare (which can't kill him, that's about 140 damage so far). Maybe hit with a 3rd flare? How about a 4th one? Your general statements don't make valid arguments. Same with saying "have you played against mithyk, or fubar?" Yeah, I have. This doesn't prove anything. It literally makes no argument. But you did refute that pyro is underpowered, and then said nothing that supports that.

I'm sure if Ethan was reading this he'd laugh at both our posts, though. Lots of really bad logic and fallacies I'm sure. It just really bothers me that you refute something without making any arguments, and that's part of my life (making and breaking games). I agreed on the airblasting ubers, but it was still situational. It is indeed OP against invuln ubers, because it destroys something specifically designed to be unstoppable (although one could argue the heavy needs to kill the pyro first, which is easy). For everything else, nothing has been said that sounds like an argument, only a statement.

Don't count on an attorney for logical arguments. They reflect the law that was written based on....wait for it....opinions, and not always the most popular ones. Laws were written by people in power and a lot of the time to help them remain in power. I've dealt with my fair share of attorneys at work and in my personal life in the last few years and they are every bit as biased and illogical as anyone. (Ethan, you I like, but not because you are going to be an attorney.)

I think it's great that you do this for a living. I also think it's great that you help create a structure at your work that makes it easier to develop and improve games. I have created new products, processes, organizations, etc. I have guided/managed/lead/mentored/counseled hundreds of people into new and greater capabilities. However, I am not asking any of you to follow any of the methods that I have used to be successful. And guess what, I am not going to conform to your standards for discussing or arguing or whatever you want to call it.

So honestly, and this is not a criticism of you, I don't care to analyze why I think the pyro is not UP and that adding additional capabilities will cause an imbalance for my favorite class. If it's biased and wrong, so effing what? If the popular OPINION is that it is UP and needs something for class enhancement, so effing what? I am not here to argue a point until we both agree due to irrefutable evidence and data. I am glad that someone does it and that Valve has spent the time to invest in this game that I enjoy (well, used to) and has kept it viable for a long time. I do think they have lost their way, not that they aren't making a ton of money from their work.

I also think hats ruined the game but I am not going to break that down into component parts either.

Okay, no problem. I can see you don't want to debate it. I tend to try to get some answers out of someone with a strong opinion since it helps me understand what someone else thinks. I'm not trying to get you to agree, but rather I wanted to really hear your reasoning, out of curiosity if nothing else (not to make you agree with me or insult you like a random internet person would). If I don't know your reasons, I can't see that perspective, and reasons others have given were not convincing to me (again, as a game dev I care to know, whether it's about my games or other games I am familiar with).

Didn't mean to put down your opinion though. As much as Steam forumers whine, I'm sure Valve learns a lot from them and makes decisions based on their posts as well. Whether they are decisions you agree with are beside the point though, but I'm sure they actually do want to read praise and complaints.

Speaking as one of the normal Pyros on this map, and using the lowest damage output Flamethrower the Degreaser. I have NEVER considered this class underpowered, IMO anyone that claims Pyro is underpowered, is underskilled. I have yet to fail to kill who I want (Medics, Engineers, Sentries), where I want, or even when I want. I am not even the most skilled Pyro on the server, though I get more enviromental kills than anyone else...People who have a better handle on Reflects do a better job at the class.

If anything, they could add a Jump feature to the Pyro and IMO that would be all anyone would need to add to the class to improve upon it without making it OP.

That pyro jump is now in the form of the detonator, although it eats up a chunk of your health and the jump is more like a hop. I haven't practiced enough to see if it's still possible to super jump like I used to in the beta, but it's enough to get you over other players and higher than a scout double jump. I actually used it during real games to my advantage (speed, escape), which to me, means it's at least somewhat useful.

The problem I've had so far with flare jumping is that when I try to detonate, I can't get anymore height than I do when I don't detonate. The detonator is designed to have a tiny explosion if it hits the wall/ground so that would explain the pretty small jumping ability if I don't detonate. But when I do detonate (there's 0 delay in shooting and detonating), I don't feel like I get any extra height. And while I may not be DANE when it comes to rocket jumps, I know how to crouch jump, strafe, etc, so it's not a lack of ability there...

ah...guess I will practice a bit w/it